9/11 Five Years on

[rainy]

Well, it's that time of the year again. Five years ago attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon changed the world.

And how they did. Five years, two wars, one (!) convicted terrorist and countless additional casualties in the Middle East later, the world doesn't tire of paranoia, War On Terror propaganda and grossly misleading information.

There is one aspect I will never dispute about 9/11: it was an immense tragedy, and I feel deeply sorry for the victims and their relatives. Especially the firefighters and policemen, who knowingly and willingly sacrificed themselves to save as many lives as possible, they are the true heroes of 9/11.

But I still question that everything happened as they say it did. Too much information is missing, too many holes are in the official version of the events for me to believe it without question. 9/11 has been used as an excuse for two wars, countless infringements of personal freedom and citizen rights, surveillance laws that would have made the KGB and Stasi proud. I think humanity has a right to know what really happened, and I don't believe that we have been told the whole truth.

I also don't believe in the War on Terror. Not as it is being waged. I do believe that something needs to be done to elimintae terrorism, but going about it with increased military presence, spying on your own citizens and trying to blame Bin Laden today, Saddam tomorrow and Iran next year, is not the right thing. These terrorists don't wake up in the morning and decide to blow up a train or a plane. Terrorism has deeper reasons, and many of them have to do with the constant presence and interference of the Western World in the Middle East, purely for their own interest. I think that an effective way to curb terrorism is to deescalate the situation in the Middle East, help the peoples to buold up a society accoring to their ideals and beliefs, and generally stop meddling. Wagging our guns and missiles and declare war on terrorism in my eyes just makes those guys go "Yeah? Bring it on!".

Just my thoughts for the day. Feel free to contribute, agree, disagree or ignore me :)

[FeralBanana]

I actually agree with you RN... I don't think Bush handled it in the right way AT ALL...

I think that if America stopped being so (you can argue with me on this one :p) Imperialistic, colonising the Middle East, we could have a much better chance of peace in the world...


As a side note, it's also my parent's wedding anniversary today :eek:

Happy happy mum n dad! :p ;)

[Pios]

maybe if they nuke the planet we could all get along, albeit as a bunch of mutated freaks ?!

But yea,
The issues I have is that religion is yet again causeing issues.
I vote we ban asll religion.
That way everyone is pissed off !

[rainy]

By the way, interesting article in the British Independent today:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/article1466758.ece

[SlappY]

Well... hate to be the one to go against the grain here...again! BUT....
An eye for an eye! What did the terrorist hope to achieve by flying a plane into a building, I must have missed that chapter in my "How to make friends and influence people" manual. It is quite obvious they dont believe in a diplomatic solution, so why should the rhetoric be any different. Remember THEY were the ones who flew the plane and slaughtered thousands of INNOCENT people...not the other way around. Sure you can blame the catalysts to the event, but I guarentee you no one truely knows what they are. It is because the catalyst was a concept.

Truth be told they begrudge Western ideaology. They hate us cause of what we are.... not because of what we have done to them. They are not allowed to sip pina caladas on the sunny beaches of Califonria or be "earthly bound" by material goods, and therefore hate anyone who can. And it does come right back to religion. This hatred goes back thoudands of years, before a stupid global economy existed. Simply put they are not tollerant enough to exist in a global free trade society.

Also, if any would be terr is reading this... if you want the racial prejudice to stop....STOP BLOWING SHIT UP. If someone doesnt like cripples, you are not going to make yourself more popular by shooting your other foot off in protest. Thats just dumb!

But I agree. The Western world is to blame for the current state of affairs. I blame them for letting it get this far. They should have shut that party down long before the guests were invited.

[rainy]

I tend to disagree Slappy. I think you are a victim of American propaganda there. They don't just hate us for what we are. It doesn't come out of nothing. They do hate the West for what the West has done to them, from colonization times right through to today. Osama Bin Laden himself has been quoted to have said that all he wants is America and Europe to get the hell out of his country. If they really hated the western ideology so much, why are so many Arabs, Turks and Indians coming to live in Europe and America?

The global free trade society is such a thing. It is free by western standards. Muslims have different ideas, and rightly so. Why should the West be allowed to impose their ideals on everyone else? Fundamental difference in Muslim trade laws, which are bound by the Sharia code, is that there may be no interest charged on anything. You get back what you put in, no more, no less. The West has been going around in the Middle East for decades out of pure egoism, in pursuit of their own interests, while noone ever gave a flying rats arse about the interests of the Middle East countries and peoples.

Islam is not a religion of hatred. The Qur'an and the Bible are very similar in many aspects. The few who are preaching hatred are fanatics, and by no means a majority, and by no means better or worse than any other fundamentalists or fanatics in any religion. That being said, I don't condone terrorism - but I do believe that there are deeper reasons than just arbitrary hatred, and that the west is directly to blame for the current situation, through their actions and neglections.

[Askari]

RN:

Islam is not a peaceful and tolerant religion (neither is Christianity but thats another debate)

By following Islam one of the core ideas is that you are superior in belief, religion, god, everything. You are also expected to convert literally the whole world and those that will not be converted must be put to death. Sound like a far fetched concept? So is flying planes into buildings and strapping bombs to yourself.

There is no doubt that Islam is on a mission and its to take over the world. How better to do it than to have people infiltrate western nations. Yes, they arent immigrants they are infiltrators. They dont want to be assimilated and adapt to the western way of life, they want to create Islamic states.

Taking the UK as an example: The Jews and the Chinese go there, work and keep to themselves. Sure they erect temples and shrines but they dont make a huge fuss about it. They are hardly noticed.

Did the US lie about 9/11? Probably.Did it take advantage of it to further its interests? Definatley. Do I mind? Not really.

[Pios]

@askari:
Err mate think of the crusades ..
Is christianity any better ?
I dont think so.
Religion is the root of all evil.
End of story !

[Askari]

Read my post again

[Pios]

i agree'd with you ..
WTF ?

[Askari]

I know I know, just thought you might have missed the part about how I thought Christianity was just as bad;)

[Pios]

Look at the church state seperation in the US, there is none
there should be ... or technically there is but hey ..

[rainy]

Not just in the US...

[Askari]

But it has to be noted that there arent currently Christains flying planes into building or strapping bombs to themselves. I believe Christianity has mellowed while Islam is still stuck in the Dark Ages.

[Pios]

Have a look at the toys these guys play with lets bomb the crap out of a non christian country with no evidence other than we dont like its leader ?
Iraq ??
Afganistan ??

Christian goverments only upped the ante.
Same deal, only they are cowards to not do it in person instead they do it for 'WOMD' reasons ?
WTF Us got more of those than anyone else.
I think they deserve everything they get.
Like a schoolground bully getting a bloody nose for beating up the kids, then running to bring big brother bully to beat up the lil guy that gave it a bloody nose.
I am sorry for the loss of life and that. really i am. But if you mess around with someone who is willing to take a stand dont expect to not get a few blows insideways.

In truth there is no-one able to stand toe to toe with the US army guys.
So how do you not sit down and me bully'd you take a diff route.

Thats all that happened her.
PS. I dont condone there actions in any way means or form.
But nor do i condone the US's

[TG]

ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....

[SlappY]

Rainy, the middle east cant come play on an international pitch then try change the rules of the game. I am well aware of the differences in the monetry systems of the culture, but this again reinforces my argument in that they have no tolerance or respect for other cultures. They are the odd ones out, not the rest of the world yet they feel they are being hard done by.
Look at what they did to all the historical artifacts in the country...they are like, sorry mate, I dont agree with that, lets blow it up.

More to the point, they enjoy spending the Wests money. All the oil barrans living in the UK funded houses, with their US trained mercs, in their Japanese cars, shaking their fists condeming the world. It is totally hypocritical.

I am no idiot, I know propoganda when I see it. But pure logic prevails.
I see a government that publically executes it citerzins.
I see them spending the money of the people they condem for their trade policies.
I see planes flying into building
I see people being tricked into blowing themselves up.
I see them EXPLOITING and RAPING their own religion to persue personal vandettas.
I see humanitarian workers getting their heads chopped off by the people they are trying to help.

What they actually need is a little introspection. The person pointing the fingers is usually the one at fault. Instead of spending millions funding a private army, why not spend it on food and blankets first.

They are savages and have no respect for life despite the doctrins they hold so dear. (And yes, believe it or not I have readthe Q'ran and no what they are doing is not what it wants) They claim that their religion outweighs life, yet then take shelter in "Holy Ground" to hide from the yanks, knowing that the yanks respect their own beliefs more than they do and wont attack.

Their justifications for their actions are so contridicted the only rationale that explains it all is that they hate anything that doesnt conform to a few perverted ideals.

They love power
They love death
They are sick of camels
They want convertables

It is a simple equation...

[TG]

Soo.... how about this freaking weather, eh?

Blooming hot if you ask me!

It's like 27 degrees or something now. Crezzy man, crezzy!

[Pios]

indeed crazy 28 here in bristol today !

[NehSher]

[QUOTE=askari-za;27753]RN:

Islam is not a peaceful and tolerant religion (neither is Christianity but thats another debate) [Quote]

Ok religion now we are on dangerous territory. Everyone is entitled to their repective opinions but only as long as you convert to mine in the end.lol.
i would like to make a few statments and observations.I agree with askari on a few points but not on all.

u need to look at the core beliefs of islam, both codified as well as traditions. Also at there world views. I once listened to a lecture by a specialist on Islam and according to him islam views the world in 2 parts. 1 the territorries of Allah and 2 the territories of war. the first is any country that is under islamic law (a country that used to be under islam but is no longer is a big no no. ie spain and israel) and 2nd is everybody else ie countries not under islam is therefore territores of war and thus must be brought under islamic law by any means neccesary. Every major conflict in the world - islam is involved in some way or other.

Jihad or holy war, is also a fundemntal concept of islam. There will never be peace in Israel because it is unacceptable in the arab mind that it is no longer under islamic law. Under islamic law there is no such thing as peace (vs state of war) only victory. Cease fires are acceptable in only as far as you can regather your strength to attack again. This tradition was started my7 muhamed when he invaded mecca. He was loosing the battle so he called a ceasefire, he then proceeded to gather his forces and was then able to break the cease fire when he was ready thus turning a loosing situation into a succesful invasion. That is why cease fires in Israel never lasts.

I concede that religion (even islam) is not inherently evil but evil men do abuse religion in there lust for power ie hitler and george bush).

Christianity if u look at its core and fundemental principles is not about violence and hatred. it does not condone crusades etc. But Men have misused it to gain unto themselves power and control, holding sway over the ignorant masses.
You can not blame Jesus for what is done inhis name. Many prophets were slain in the name of moses and the Law, but you cannot blame Or hold moses accountable because ppl twisted his words to suite their own ends.

------------------

I do believe we need laws to govern our lives. you need Moral values and borders within which you can safely conduct your selves. if there was no fence u would not know if u were on the wrong side of it.

[Askari]

Thanks for expanding on the concept of 2 states: "Under Islam" and "must be brought under Islam by ANY means necessary"

This can be further expanded into 2 types of people: "Under Islam" and "must be brought under Islam by ANY means necessary"

Christianity, last time I looked doesnt demand that people who dont want to believe or be converted must be killed. Sure this has been the case but it isnt what the Bible says. The Q'ran does say this, quite clearly.

Personally the choice is easy between a world controlled by Neo-con, Christian republicans or Islamic Fundamentalists.

[StaticS]

Man i just done 2 hours of studying now i have to read all this! Nooo prob i got me reading cap on and im all good to go... *StaticS has fallen asleep due to constant reading :sleep: *

[rainy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

[Bass]

Hmmm ... well, since the topic has been opened, allow me to chip in ... :D

/me leaps up onto soap-box

..


Askari - you are right in saying that Islam has a core value of superiority, and conversion or death for the rest of the world. While I agree 100% with the statement that "Religion is a bad thing/root of all evil" (Pios), let me add:

Christianity has been used as an excuse for many things, and many things are done in the name of Christianity that are obviously wrong/bad/evil. Unfortunately many people think that being born into a Christian family, or attending church all your life, or doing stacks of good things make one a Christian (which it doesn't, anymore than living in a garage makes you a car). And that is often used as a good reason/excuse for doing whatever people want to do (like the crusades).


Christianity (let's call it the "true" (i.e. biblical) version) is actually all about my/your relationship with God. It's NOT about what I must/mustn't do - a list of do's and don'ts.

One of the best quotes I have heard is as follows:



Jesus claimed to be the son of God (and the only way to access Him)
Anyone claiming this is either:
1. A lunatic
2. A liar, or
3. Who he claims to be.

Read what he said & did & decide for yourself.


So true Christianity is actually (if I follow Jesus' example) all about giving my life away, for the benefit of other people..

.. my 2c about what I strive for in life .. :D

/me climbs off soapbox again :)

[Askari]

I was trying to avoid talking about Christianity as I felt the topic was really relevant to Islam but its inevitable that it would arise.

As far as I am concerned:
If I am a Christian, Islam means to convert me or put me to death.
If I am not a Christian or a Jew Islam means to put me to death regardless.
Thus Islam is my enemy.

There may be followeres of Islam that contend this is not really true and to this I say that they arent dedicated followers of their religion and thus I have no respect for you anyways. If you are going to do something, especially follow a religion or belief system then do it properly or not at all. I dont mean you have to be perfect but you cant take out the bits that suit you and ignore the rest. Islam is clear on what it means.

[N3ddy]

This isn't going to end well....:hmmm:

[TG]

Hi Guys,

Although everybody is entitled to their own opinion, I'm very uncomfortable with this topic.

Please let it drop.

[rainy]

Although this was never meant to be a discussion about Islam, and I stil disagree with some points made in this thread, I probably never should have started this topic...

~Closed~