SiCKO (Michael Moore)

[senorblinky]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlDAUKSh9CQ

So i got this movie from TG a while back, and as the title suggests, it doesn't sound like a shiny happy film, until i read more about Moore's latest Doccie.

SiCKO is about the corrupted HMO system in America as opposed to the rest of the world. And Moore is his usual, mischievous self.

I watched this on Sunday and would watch it again in a heartbeat - it was PHENOMENAL! As usual, the most amazing research team come through for him, but in this case, it's the people and their responses that make the film.

I sat there wide eyed and open mouther for the most part of the movie, as it is both shocking and funny. In fact, it's SOOO shocking, it's actually funny!

You will not waste your time with this film, it really is fantastic, i loved it.

[Voicy]

hooray for boat trip to Cuba's free meds :D

[senorblinky]

Hahahahaha! so you've seen it?
How flippen fantastic was that?!
I should actually just arrange a viewing of it at my place, it's one of the doccies i would be able to watch over and over.

[Voicy]

I reckon we beat up TG, dress him up in a patient's gown - rent a taxi and drop him off in the middle of hillbrow. It looked pretty cool in the doc.

[senorblinky]

No,no, not TG...
Mebbe Drusky? He's a ginger ninja, he can take care of himself!

[Roloreaper]

Hate to see what they would say about SA

[senorblinky]

SA isn't that bad - at leastm, the private hospitals aren't THAT bad.
A bit flippen expensive, maar nou ja.
I'm actually looking for thw WHO survey.

[Voicy]

the who ? :p

Incidentally ... google omits common words like "the" and "who" from search queries. Hence it is impossible to do a google search on the band " The Who " :D

[TG]

the who ? :p

Incidentally ... google omits common words like "the" and "who" from search queries. Hence it is impossible to do a google search on the band " The Who " :D

Here's a search that works just fine:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22the+who%22&btnG=Google+Search

[senorblinky]

Bash.org fan i see.

[Albereth]

If it is such a big concern why doesn't he take the money he makes from the movie and buy the meds?

Moore is a bottom feeder

[senorblinky]

Ooooooh! Why do you say that Alb?

[Albereth]

All of his movies deal with the dumber Americans. He exploits them to promote whatever inane idea that he may have about what is wrong. Everyone is a victim of the Bush administration, are puppets of the NRA, or have had the rug pulled out from under them by big business.

And then he pitches up and shoots a 'documentary' that projects his biased view point. But if he was at all concerned he'd actually plough some of the money he gets for the movies back to the very people he claims to be looking out for.

[senorblinky]

I do not have the energy to commit to a retort. You have some valid points but i think you neglect some insight. I think this has the potential to be an exciting conversation.

[TG]

*sigh*

I'll warm up the "lock thread" and "ban" buttons.

[senorblinky]

Ok, i'm heading to a meeting, literally! but i do want to leave you with this:
Ventilator A = $120 in USA
Ventilator A = $0,05 in Cuba...

That alone should nail that coffin shut. But ok, more to follow.

[Albereth]

Meaningless figures...

I am not going to argue with you about what medicines or medical equipment cost. And Sicko isn't about the cost of medicine in Cuba - that stunt was to get some people from the 9/11 incident to claim medical help from the military base in Cuba where the POWs (for want of a better term) are getting treatment.

And he sends an 'anonymous' cheque to one of his critics - so, if I know about it it is hardly what I'd call anonymous.

He has made of the highest grossing 'documentaries' and he could have afforded to pay for the treatment of those people that he was supposedly outraged about. Instead he goes to Cuba and puts them in another sort of jeopardy, that of being investigated by the US Treasury. To push his agenda. To put money in his bank account.

And you think that I am without insight. I am sure you have all of his movies - I only have 3. And I have his books too. Sure - I may have no insight, but I'd also present a balanced view, not gloss over the ills in the Canadian, British and French health care systems. If the UK is so rosy why do so many of them come here for treatment?

[Voicy]

Be what he may, I find his views interesting.

I rather enjoyed the documentary "This Divided State" along with "bowling for columbine" as well.

[TG]

:boxing:

Ooooh. FIIIIIIIGHT!

[Hoss]

Hey Alb, stop pickin on Blinky....


...I'm busy doing that in another thread, so get in line

:D

[Voicy]

*lol* shame man.

Nah but albe has a point though, having said that - one also needs to realize that documentaries are not always made by honourable humanitarians ... it's entertainment.

[senorblinky]

I am not going to argue with you about what medicines or medical equipment cost. And Sicko isn't about the cost of medicine in Cuba - that stunt was to get some people from the 9/11 incident to claim medical help from the military base in Cuba where the POWs (for want of a better term) are getting treatment.

And he sends an 'anonymous' cheque to one of his critics - so, if I know about it it is hardly what I'd call anonymous.

He has made of the highest grossing 'documentaries' and he could have afforded to pay for the treatment of those people that he was supposedly outraged about. Instead he goes to Cuba and puts them in another sort of jeopardy, that of being investigated by the US Treasury. To push his agenda. To put money in his bank account.

And you think that I am without insight. I am sure you have all of his movies - I only have 3. And I have his books too. Sure - I may have no insight, but I'd also present a balanced view, not gloss over the ills in the Canadian, British and French health care systems. If the UK is so rosy why do so many of them come here for treatment?

So Roger and Me was a good Doccie, so was bowling for columbine. Unfortunately, Fahrenheit 911 was labeled a motion picture (not a Doccie) since his "reporting" was biased and he didn't get insights from the other end. It was a subjective view.

Now we have SiCKO. A story where one film maker tries to educate the american people on their corrupt healthcare system. He wants it to change, and be more universally friendly to the american population. He doesn't play around with the facts, he blatantly states in the start of his film that 50million of the 250 million don't have insurance. And not the ENTIRE group of 200 million are unhappy with insurance, but a good portion are. So it's safe to say that he hasn't played fast and loose with the facts, especially if you read the press statements on his website, or his CNN interviews (which was actually quite classic). So he shows us how it works in other countries. He tries to be a bit controversial, shock tactics often help to open some eyes, especially with the Cuba trip. But all is to get the American systems to reach their potential as caregivers, doctors, nurses, pharmacists.

So we have to look at the prescription costs in the UK vs. the States, we have to look at the drug costs in Cuba vs the States, because ultimately, those drugs are exactly the same, why do the costs differ so greatly? Well, we are on about a healthcare system that is not socialist, as the Yanks just HATE any form of socialism (despite their school system et al), it's capitalist, it's out to make money, when it's supposed to care about the consumers.

Look, i am not o\here to sell Moore's work as the gospel. You've seen the films, you've read the books and you have the background. He is trying to instigate change. But i would be a fool to say he WASN'T trying to make money, because let's face it, his work is BRILLIANT! love it, or hate it, it's brilliant. But to assemble a lynch mob and try to string up Moore for not taking care of people who he is "supposedly" concerned for, would be like blaming Sir David Attenborough for letting the snow leopard catch the helpless baby mountain goat. It would be like blaming the photographer for taking pictures of a city burning and not helping the children. Moore cannot possibly be expected to take care of every single american in need, and saying that he personally should have taken care of those 911 rescue workers, is like admitting there was a problem in the first place.

Ultimately, nowhere is Rosy. We all believe the grass is greener on the other side, i personally believe it's because there is more manure, but the ultimate point is to strive to make things better on THIS side of the fence, as it should be. However, moore shows us ideals that we can strive for and make it better for ALL!

On a personal side note, i apologise for making the "lack of insight" comment earlier, i should've phrased it differently, it sounded like i said you were dumb, which is not at all the case.

[Albereth]

A bunch of stuff.

I really do not think that Attenborough took the mountain goat and put it in the same box as the snow leopard just to see what would happen. Moore took those people and put them in the same box as the marines - who are as twitchy as Jack Nicolson would have you believe in 'A Few Good Men'.

One is recording fact, the other is creating a confrontation and filming that. Have a look at the making of Planet Earth and you'll see the weeks that went into getting those shots - sure it would have been easier to load the goat on a boat. (Not that getting the boat into the Himalayas would be a walk in the park)

As to the drugs - in the USA they believe in paying for the development costs and factoring that into the drug price. In Cuba they don't mind stealing someone else's research and calling it a generic.

You want to really have a discussion of the benfits of socialism - try reading some O'Rourke

[Flatty]

Very interesting topic, sorry I am so late chaps. Does anyone mind if I put my 2 cents worth? < rhetorical question, no answer needed.

At the end of the day, there is no money in actually curing people. The money lies in treating sick people. The longer you take to find a cure, the more money you make.

Healthcare is the biggest scam under the sun next to insurance. It is a bunch of businessmen taking a gamble on whether, or not, you will die before they have to pay out, and how much money they can squeeze out of you before you die. A calculated risk. You may as well take your cash to the bookie.

Granted, there are payouts, but I guarantee you that when the accountants go to management, and tell them there will be a shortfall because of an unusually high number of payouts, management simply says: "Okay, inform the claims department that we would like to see claims rejections increase by X percent" These guys are running a business. They want to make money. They don't give a damn whether you are dying, or not. You are just a number on a piece of paper.

Subsidisation is a fact of life. If the pharmaceutical companies try and enter a third world country, with first world prices, they simply won't get the necessary licences to operate in these countries. So, what happens? First world countries are charged a premium to compensate for the reduced profits in third world countries. Simple accounting. They are still making a profit in the third world countries, but not enough to keep the shareholders happy. The same happens with medical equipment.

To make matters even worse, we are being given generic medicines that often only have a fraction of the active ingredient that the original medicine has. It might be cheaper, but is it doing the job properly? Doctors are encouraged to prescribe these generics because they receive a better incentive than they would if they supplied the original medicine. Do you think the majority of the doctors actually care whether it takes 2 months to get better on a generic, as opposed to the 2 weeks that the original medicine would take? I don't think so. Two weeks down the line, R200.00 additional consultation fees, more pills, who cares?

At the end of the day we live in a capitalist society. The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. If you want decent healthcare, be prepared to pay through your nose. If you want decent insurance, likewise. If you would like this woman,

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh118/FlatspinZA/heidi_klum1.jpg

to be permanently available to wash your car, change your name to SEAL, and be prepared to pay.

We live in a world consumed by its own greed, and until the human race reaches a collective decision that there is an obligation to ensure decent education, affordable healthcare & humane living conditions for each and every single person on this planet (Not only because of the gross injustices of the past, but because it is the humane thing to do), get used to it. It's not going to change in our lifetime.

I like to think you WrG's are decent guys that would help a fallen comrade, and in fact you have demonstrated that you would. There are not enough people like you peeps, and that is the sad fact of life. :violin:

[senorblinky]

I'll concede.
Albe's knowledge of the subject matter is far greater than my own, and he has 20 years of life experience that i still need to make up for. But if it's all the same, i enjoyed the Film. Probably because i am too ignorant to know any better.

[Albereth]

What?

Chicken!

Yes, his films are funny. Yes, his books are funny.

My arguement isn't about whether health care is in turmoil, costs too much, is unethical. Our own Dept of Health can bear testimony to that. I really take issue with Michael Moore and his approach. And maybe it is because he comes off as a clown that irks. This is a serious topic and people die. There is the great divide between those that have and those that don't.

And another irony is that this movie received a standing ovation in Cannes. How many people do you think give up being able to afford medical insurance just so they can lounge around Cannes? None - all those folk there have absolutely no worries whatsoever in being able to afford health care. Do you think any ran out and changed anything?

I mentioned the 'anonymous' donation that Moore made. He made this to a critic of his whose wife needed an op that they couldn't afford without shutting down the critic's web site. So Moore pays saying something that the 1st Ammendment is more important yada yada. Again feeds on someones misery to make a point - yet claims that it was all anonymous.

Blinky - I am glad that you enjoyed his movies and I am glad that you care about the injustices in the health care industry.

I just think he could have been more tasteful.