Officer Discussion: Ranks and goals

[senorblinky]

Thread Disclaimer:

This is an officer discussion, there is no longer such a thing as a private thread, so as guild members, you can participate (or at the very least, you can follow) in the conversation. However, this is a serious officer discussion thread, aimed at getting an outcome on an issue, so if your post does not add value, or you're here to muck around, your post will be deleted. Your suggestions will be considered, but the officer's decisions is final - correspondence will happily be entered into, but we can be mean, sarcastic bitches, so think twice before you do ;) :)

Hello Team

Ok, so last night Dormethan came to us and complained about being a plain member and not an Alumni member. He originally spoke to Hoss, who subsequently referred him to me (thanks buddy) and after he didn't get his way with me, he started working on Nitty.

Hoss, Nitty and I had a discussion about the goings on in the officer channel last night, so the three of us are relatively up to speed, but now the question of rank is something we need to discuss and put to bed, just so that we are all on the same page.

The Facts:
Alumni Rank - The Alumni rank was created for those members that basically followed the disbanding of the WrG on the website and pledged their commitment to the new guild on the day of its inception. Like the olympics, if you were online during the Olympics and participated in one BG, it didn't matter if you won or lost, you got the competitors tabard, which Blizzard is labelling as a "feat of strength", since the Olympics is a special occasion every four years (well, actually two, but i'm sure you follow my point) If everyone had a tabard, it would cease to be special, similarly, if everyone achieved the alumni rank, what's the point? It would cease to be special. I do not have to defend my decisions, but I will add that my best friends (TG, Crossie, Gascan, Carri as examples - Vudu and Sonnie already got in arly enough to get their ranks :D) who did a hell of a lot in the old WrG guild, and who are close, personal friends of mine, do not have the Alumni rank, and will in all likelihood never get it (but like mature adults, i'm sure they understand why this is the case)

Alumni Rank is for all intents and purposes closed, and only the alts of current Alumni members will be promoted to that rank.

Veteran Rank- So far, we have no vets, and for very good reason. I want Chess Clubbers to work for the rank. Currently, ranks are kinda pointless, we are only 14 or 15 people at the moment, with a nice average of 7 to 12 on every night. But once we get to be 40 members again, with 30 online at average, then the veteran rank will be beneficial to the guild, but also to the individual members who work at attaining it.

As per our conversation last night, i think we need to highlight clear goals (like all achievements in WoW, it's listed and it's clear what you have to do, you don't run around guessing how to get an achievement), but we also have to discuss the potential perks of achieving that rank. Currently, the only advantages of ranks is the value you add to them, or the access you have to the GB, but i mean, that's ridiculous, so we need to figure out perks so that guildies also feel like they achieved something when they get the Vet Status in TKCC. Raiding for example - i was thinking that veteran members have preference when booking for raids. (IE There is a raid scheduled for friday, a member books Monday, a veteran books Wednesday, and pending group composition, a member would have to sit out to make space for the veteran, understand?) My example my sound rash now, but i mean, being flippen 10 people online it won't make a difference now, but having thirty online, can you imagine how fantastic it would be if these chaps did the work to get that Vet status?

But what is the work? Well, we need to define criteria. I don't think timelines are necessarily an issue at this point, especially since some game seriously and others have the relaxed approach, i don't want to impose restrictions that influences you play style. So here's what i think would make the most sense:

1. Level 80 - a must?
2. GB donations - at least 500 gold or the mats equivalent thereof (though i'm hesitant to include mats, i don't want 4 million bronze tubes in there)
3. Player assistance - Designating a portion of your playtime to other players (not your direct friends), whether it's boosting them through low level instances, helping them with achievements (that you don't need), helping them out with materials to level their profession, helping them with crafted gear at level 80 (Thumpy is a good example, he never charges for the crafted gear he makes, and he's spends thousands like this), coming to their aid when ganked, or just going on a farm run with them - and example of a farm run is when Voicy joined me as i was mining for iron on one of my chars (low level one) but he mined all the mithril and truesilver and silver, because i was too low a level. When i was done, he gave me everything he mined for me to smelt and consequently up my skill.

Those are the three things i see to build a strong, but more importantly COHESIVE guild, if everyone strived to be a better guild mate to their guild mates.


Well, i think that's everything i wanted to discuss today.


I ask you, my dear officers, to take a look at he points and respond in kind, remember, nothing that i said in this post is FINAL without your contributions first, so i want to hear from you;
1. What other perks should vets have (like, they're the only ones eligible for the stokvel every month and the raid booking)
2. What criteria do we impose for members to become vets, and do we create ANOTHER rank above vets for the SUPERHUMAN vets? (and then just give this rank to someone who has gone above and beyond?)
3. Criteria - can we make more suggestions than what i listed, and if we're happy with what i listed, can we refine it perhaps and make it clear? i mean, helping a guildy can be a minor thing you do once a month, or a big part of your day to day play.
4. And of course, is there anything else you would like to raise in this forum?


Also, if anyone needs reference, i did take screenshots of my conversation with Dormethan last night if anyone would like to read it, Nitty, i asked you to do the same, but that shouldn't really carry any weight in terms of your thoughts or decisions in this thread.

Looking forward to your inputs team!

[Nitty]

Thank you for this post Blinky. I will have a better look at it tonight & respond. Sorry I'm a bit hectic at work today :)

[Hoss]

Alumni Rank vs. Veteran Rank

I feel after all the discussions last night, that the Alumni rank is now closed. It should be realized by all members (and impressed upon them if they don't seem to get it) that this rank is merely an "achievement". A very small gesture on our part as officers to say thank you to those members that were there at the genesis of our guild; not genesis + 1 week. It doesn't work like that. It will serve you NO better when it comes to raids, guild bank access, etc etc than the Veteran rank. And I'll tell you why I say this. Its because I feel the veteran rank has to be the highest rank achievable from now on (for the foreseeable future). No superhuman ranks or anything of that sort. Like Blinky has said we don't even have vets at the moment. It is no small feat reaching this status; let alone feeling you can skip this and go straight to Alumni. Maybe just maybe Alumni can become available to members in the future, if we see a new development taking place, or Jim Morrison is found to still be alive, but that will be up to the leadership to decide, if we feel something new is needed.

I don't think timelines are necessarily an issue at this point, especially since some game seriously and others have the relaxed approach, i don't want to impose restrictions that influences you play style. So here's what i think would make the most sense:


Here I agree. timeliness are difficult and I dont want to see criteria that will change the way you love playing this game. Obviously you should contribute to the team if you want to move up the ranks of that team. If that wasn't your gaming style, positions in guilds would mean nothing to you surely?

1. Level 80 - a must?


Yes I feel it is a must. There is no point in having access to raids; higher level tabs etc etc yet you don't even have an lvl 80. And the bar will obviously be raised, come the expansion, to lvl 85 for those new members coming into the guild
2. GB donations - at least 500 gold or the mats equivalent thereof (though i'm hesitant to include mats, i don't want 4 million bronze tubes in there)


I'm also not sure here. I stuck 1 or 2 Frost Lotus in the bank last night, but I don't even know if anyone will find it of use. Gold however is always easy. If we have a player desperately in need of a loan to finance a new mount or some such, the money can always come in handy. If you need a copper tube or a frost lotus you can go farm that or its mats in 10 minutes IMO or ask your mate which brings us to the next point...

3. Player assistance - Designating a portion of your playtime to other players (not your direct friends), whether it's boosting them through low level instances, helping them with achievements (that you don't need), helping them out with materials to level their profession, helping them with crafted gear at level 80.


Yes yes yes. I am however uncertain of how one would police this. Supplying mats to mates so they can have stuff made, or level a profession for me is almost more important than boosts.

1. What other perks should vets have (like, they're the only ones eligible for the stokvel every month and the raid booking)

I feel these perks can be determined as we go along. The guild is still young, and as we said earlier, we don't even have vets yet. The one thing however is that Alumni and Vets must get the same rights except for some very special occasions ( and I mean special occasions)
2. What criteria do we impose for members to become vets, and do we create ANOTHER rank above vets for the SUPERHUMAN vets? (and then just give this rank to someone who has gone above and beyond?)


I'm pretty much opposed to anything higher than Vet. I would consider creating something between Member and Vet. I just feel that a new member gets put onto trial for a two week period. After those two weeks he gets bumped up to the same level as someone that has been around a while and but has not yet cracked the nod for Vet status. But at the end of the day maybe I'm just arguing semantics. My concern will just be that if we are going to create a rank above Vet while the Vets essentially have the same rights as Alumni, it would result in SUPERHUMAN vets, essentially out ranking an Alumni. But like I said, semantics.

3. Criteria - can we make more suggestions than what i listed.


I can't really think of anything. I feel we need to look at the gold donation. Is it a once off? Then I would like to see something higher. It's pointless have a guild bank that can only finance 1 or 2 items for members because it so bloody poor :D
I do feel that any criteria that is set down should not be set in stone. We have seen some people that could have easily met the criteria set out above but in the mean while they are causing kak elsewhere. The recent issue with the member and his hacked account comes to mind. I feel that the largest criteria will be that the leadership must be convinced of the players character, in spite of any of the above criteria being met.

[senorblinky]

Hoss, you make a couple of very, very nice points.
Ok, so we wait to hear from my man Thumpy and The Nitzor. It's an important thing that you mentioned about character, and i believe it goes without saying. I like where your head is at.

[senorblinky]

Also, speaking of ranks, one thing we've never been able to define is trial periods and evaluation, we need to get concrete guidelines for these, not just two weeks in a holding pen.

[Nitty]

Thank you Blinky & Hoss for your efforts with this thread :thumbsup: This is my take on everything:

Alumni rank is closed. End of story. If I can quote Blinky from the very first thread about TKCC and how it will work with the Alumni rank:
"It was an idea I was toying with, marking the members who were there right in the beginning to help get us on our feet, and since the WrG will be disbanded tonight (Wednesday, 7 October, 2009), we will not dole out that title after tonight (IE, everyone that logs on tonight and joins the guild will have the privileges of the Alumni rank)"

Lesson to be learnt here: Read the forums :gyes:

Veteran rank should be worked for. It is earned, not a given. I'm with Hoss that you only become a Veteran when you reach 80 (and later 85). It's something to work on and look forward to.

As for putting gold in the GB, I don't think your membership should be "bought" with gold. Anything you think other guildies can use to make their lives easier should go into the GB. Whether it be mats, recipes, gear, jewels - whatever you can spare and is worthwhile to somebody else.

Player assistance is very nice to have, and I'm with Blinky that it shouldn't just be for your friends. If you see somebody reaching a level and you know there's a nice instance that you can boost him through - go for it. Maybe you make a new friend in the process :shrug:

Veterans and Alumni should have similar perks, seeing that it will be impossible to achieve Alumni rank for now.

Just to make it clear, we have the following ranks:
Douchebag
Trial
Member
Veteran
Alumni

I think there are enough ranks for now. If we see that we are short of one, something between Member and Veteran will be a good place to put it.

Remember: The people are what MAKES a guild. It's about the greater good of the guild, not always about your own character growing. I'm not saying stop levelling altogether and donate your life to the guild. Just be concious of the other people as well :)

Also: Just like in real life, you go a lot further when you are honest about your intentions and your stories match from day to day ;)

Most of all: Have fun :D

[Arbythep00nage]

From an outside perspective i agree with Hoss. you can feel free to delete this but the Alumni rank as he put was a once off.


Blinky says:
Nah, i won't delete it, you don't play WoW and even you get the picture :D

[Thumponius]

Alumni: closed.

Veteran rank: those members that show their hearts are in the right place and at least think of the guild and its members in their doings and actions. Earned and voted on by the officers. The GM has the decisive call (you wanted it, you got it! Hehehe).

Helping out: put what you feel is useful into the GB. It's up to you. I don't believe in dictating this type of thing. It must be up to the individual and their own sense of fairplay.

Ranks: there are enough to confuse people with for now. We can always put another one in if people start feeling they have a handle on things.

Player assistance: you reap what you sow. Enough said.

The guild is about a bunch of peeps having fun in a fairly comfortable environment. If you act like a smacktard, we will caution and warn. Continue to detract from the enjoyment of your fellow guild mates and you could end up being asked (firmly!) to not let the door hit you in the arse on the way out. I don't like doing it but I will if it means that everyone can also have fun. There are no cliques or inner circles. I am not prejudiced, I detest everyone equally. I sometimes play and when I do, I want to enjoy it and have fun. Enough said.

Be cool, be mellow and enhance everyones' calm.

[senorblinky]

Nice Thumps, very nice.

Look, if we can just quickly discuss trial conditions, we can avoid smacktardery.
I'm sorry to say but clan members were once let in to guildness, the kicker was, they may have been awesome BF2ers and be terrible guildies, conversely, good guildies could've been or could be terrible BF2ers.

The kicker is, this is a new guild. A vouch from a member will get you a trial. i even want to put WrG clan members up for trial, since TKCC runs separately from the guild - but that's up for officer vote (IE a TG for example would not need to endure trial, EVERYONE knows him and he has WoW experience)

So yeah, let's discuss trial, cause i believe a stringent but fun trial will ensure that people who get in stay in, and we weed out smacktards.

Though, my idea of success is getting more family and personal friends in.

[TG]

I'm reading this thread with interest. I was going to refrain from commenting, but just wanted to add my very brief half cent... if I were to apply to the guild (assuming I started playing WoW again of course), I would be more than happy to go through the trial period.

[Jono]

One thing we do need to be careful of, as Shamus mentioned now, is Cliques and inner circles starting to form. I am definitely for the Alumni rank.(I get to be a special gnome :p ) But those who are on this rank need be reminded why they have this and that they are not better or "above" anyone else. They still need to prove their dedication to the guild like everyone else does. Can one lose this rank due to something you do? Or would you get a penalty of being a douche? :D

About the Raid preference of the different ranks. I do think it’s a good idea, but in all fairness, if for instance a Veteran signs up, and gets preference over a member, but he doesn’t show up for the raids every single time he signed up, but the member is always available or there to sub. That could cause a minor upset. I think attendance needs to be kept in mind aswell. (This rolls back to dedication as well I guess)

Aaaah, the gold donations. A minimun amount in a certain time period is a bit like a membership fee as Nitty mentioned, but donations are very important and I feel that every person should at least put some in for that day you might need tot take some out. (I think we should let the new Guildies see the rules and regulations somewhere)

Helping other Guildies is very important. If you’re not stuck in a boost, or raid etc. ie. Busy farming or doing some dailies, you should have the heart to help a lowbie when he needs help. Or offer some even. (I love boosting but so far not many requests have surfaced. Im disappointed peoples!)

[senorblinky]

Hi Jono
Let me address your first sentence first, before i continue reading your post:


One thing we do need to be careful of, as Shamus mentioned now, is Cliques and inner circles starting to form

I am quoting that out of context, cause i just want to allay any fears you kids might have. Cliques will form, that's life. I cannot expect to be an insider in the Grooly crew, i mean, he has that friendship with Bellenger and Dormethan and the rest of the kids, so to them, i will always be an outsider. Much like Thumpy is my favourite, you must never think you will get between us, whether he's right or wrong, i'll always take his side.

But you know what, that's not a problem, because you are playing with the group that you LIKE to play with. We are all geeks and we tend to be shy people (i certainly am) and we tend to stick with what we know. But no matter how much we fight it, cliques will always be there, but it won't be an issue, it really isn't - because that clique has the same aspirations and the same goals and they are keen to do it together, so let them.

HOWEVER, no clique is better than any other. If this was a competition, then i'm sorry, but the officer clique wins, we are the best. Whahaha. But seriously, i don't get the feeling that some members will ever develop an ego to the extent where they criticise members that (in the egotist's eyes) are not up to that stature. If that ever happens, get ready for a headbutt, Thumpy and I will end you quick, fast and in a hurry. TEASING members because you're a higher rank is certainly allowed :rofl: (cause i am the highest rank, so i know i'll never have to be teased :D ) Though i jest.

Ok, let's read the rest of your post uncle Jono...

Yes, you can lose rank, without a doubt! If you're being a douchebag, my officers and I will take you down a peg, so Alumni, you better be careful, if you lose it, you'll never get it back. Similar to Vets, if you think you're a big shot abecause you're a vet and better than anyone else because of your achievements, then we will knock you down a peg and you'll have to do it all over again. Though again, i'm not worried about this, because it's a humble group of people we have here. Short answer then, yes, you can lose rank, but like the Trial rank has a time limit, so does the Douchebag rank. You will be in trial for two weeks, then either make the grade and become a member, or not make the grade and we bid you adieu. Similarly, if you did something cruntastic, you have to reprove yourself worthy, else we kick you and i whisper every alliance guildmaster on SSL that you are a douchebag.

Ok, reading on...

I understand you attendance point, and trust me, we will discuss it once raiding is a more firm thing for TKCC. Right now however, we do it for poops and giggles, and we will punish you by making fun of your stupid head. Later we will give you a swift kick to the DKP crotch (if we decide to use DKP)

Reading...

I understand that gold donation can feel like a membership fee, that's why we are discussing it - you don't have to PAY to become a veteran (being a member only requires that you are awesome) HOWEVER, we want to make the veteran rank a desirable rank for everyone to pursue, because we are offering that rank special perks. So we don't want to make it a mickey mouse thing, you know what i'm saying? That donation can come in the form of gold, mats and time. Personally, it depends on my mood, some days i wouldn't mind spending 1000 gold to save 2 hours, other days i'd rather grind 4 hours to save 1000 gold. But like i said, we are discussing it - remember i made mentions of the stokvel? hmmm... :D

Ok, next point...

On your last point, i can simply say, what goes around, comes around. I gave my friend Thumpy a boost on friday, because he has done some superhuman things for guildies in the past, and for me. So you reap what you sow. If you sit in the corner and play by yourself, and you don't participate in conversations et al, then don't get upset when people don't invite you to stuff.

The beauty is, you can be as involved as you want to be, and you can do just whatever you want to do.

[Jono]

Yeah, I understand your saying on the Clique, but it’s the “we are better than you unworthy sods” type that I want to avoid. Unless youre an officer of course. (I learnt that officers always win :D )

We all know each other and we kid, that’s why I are kan like to still be here. (I still owe you one on that /train stunt, without risking my Alumni position of course, I hope :p )


I understand you attendance point, and trust me, we will discuss it once raiding is a more firm thing for TKCC. Right now however, we do it for poops and giggles, and we will punish you by making fun of your stupid head. Later we will give you a swift kick to the DKP crotch (if we decide to use DKP)

We get Grools to tank and heal we can take on anything I say. :blackeye:

Personally I love the Idea of the Stokvel and I apologize if im asking or mentioning seemingly stupid things. But If jono dont ask no one will I thinks. :shrug:

[senorblinky]

Chaps, feel free to ask questions, this is just a "don't post kak" thread, not a "don't post at all" thread.

I mean, how can the officers help if we don't know what you want or what you don't understand

[Nitty]

Indeed, we are here to help

2429

[Grooly]

Why don't i know about this Grooly crew?? :eek: word ook nooit iets gese nie! :o

One thing I'd like to find out about is our current take on recruiting. I'm sure most of us would like to start raiding more often, not as much as the oaks over at ire but this is something we definitely want to do, and I don't think its going to happen if we dont get some new members into the guild...seeing we only about 7 people online most nights.

[Hoss]

I had one moer of a long post this morning explaining my desire regarding Trial ranks, and then the 403 error smacked me back into last month. I moer stripped and since then I've had a hell of a day.

Basically it said: trial two weeks - not sure of chap then it gets longer - officer discretion essential - we mustn't be a fascist bureaucracy - I have faith in officer judgement - we can always boot the loser later.

Having read one of your post blinks you spoke about making it more fun. How so? I like the idea, lets flesh it out a bit.

But there is a lot of cart before the horse thinking going on here. For one we need new members in order to have people in trial periods, and then people advancing to vet ranks.

So as Grools say, lets talk recruiting.

1. I dont like it
2. I dont trust it
3. How can we increase numbers while ensuring we only get like minded people?
4. This will need some thought.

My brain is fried, I'll post some more thoughts later

[senorblinky]

Hehehehe, to be an old bastard, i must admit, i do kinda like that new people are now saddled with old problems, but the trick is to find that balance.

Grooly, active recruiting is not our thing, we will build from the ground up and get friends and family in. As friends spead the word, they will tell more friends. Look at Freccia, i hooked her and Ben, then they hooked Brett and Jon and Andy, now we're waiting for Nick and Simon to join, so it's growing, these are all people i know, trust, like and respect.

The know is the most important part - we are not going to recruit to just advance the raiding, we are ensuring that we've got the right foundation.

[Grooly]

Maybe i should have used a different word than recruiting...what I meant was how are we planning on growing as a guild :p
And blinks...why havent you hooked these oaks up with RAF?? :mad: they would have been 80 ages ago :D
yes yes "it takes the fun out of the game" so what? we need them 80 asap! :p

[Voicy]

Hi friends, sorry for adding my 2c

I think the recruiting thing should work the same as the WrG clan operates. Membership is by invite only. That way you approach people you think are the bee's knees as opposed to every lametard and his sticking-remotes-up-his-but-when-throwing-a-wow-fit cousin doesn't join.

That solves the likemindedness thingy.

Also chaps ... If you want to raid, get hold of the GryphonHammers. I'm STILL in contact with their top brass on regular occasions and they're always keen, but still lack numbers.

[EyeBall]

Something on my mind, Are we going to be using dkp system for our runs ?
Why I ask is that somthing to think about is that if we have new trial guildies , while they are on trial they should try and attend each raid to see their performance and also they can't bid more than 10 dkp while they are on trial. stops ninja looters :D and gives members the first option to get the upgrades , if after 2 weeks of not getting any loot and he/she's still around it usually shows they are committed to the guild

I would also suggest we try and form some sort of allaince with another easy going guild, like gryphonhammers , just to fill in the ranks . like voicy said

[senorblinky]

Don't worry about DKP yet.

Firtsly, i am not implementing DKP usage on lowbie raids (IE, everything that drops level 200 gear) Those will be DKP training runs, but ultimately /roll
Secondly, we are keeping our old DKP table, but i am resetting everyone that was in the negatives to Zero.
Thirdly, while we still have the time, i will be investigating alternative DKP distribution systems, the current table works fine, but i think one or two people may have a problem with it.

Finally - we are a casual, play-for-fun guild. Raiding is not our main focus so we are not remotely serious about it. If we want to raid, we need all our members online, so the DKP will not necessarily benefit some and not others.

YES, we do want to raid, we want to raid for funsies, so we will gear ourselves systematically to get there, but we are NOWHERE NEAR THAT yet, so why worry about it now? DKP has it's place, and in this time we have, we will look at a system that will be more beneficial to all, especially once more members get more serious about it.

Also, TKCC has a lack of raid leaders ATM. But i am going to schedule a Naxxie for Friday, for funsies, i think it's time we go for a one night clear again, excellent badges!

[Thumponius]

No, it's not being a smacktard long enough that someone would want to spend time with them on a desert island with nothing but old Springbok Forces Favourites reruns as entertainment.

[senorblinky]

Ok, i've deleted your nonsense :valkoog: (and some of my own :blush: )

I'm going to read through this threadie again and make a little summary of the points i agree with then from there we can put forward requirements for being a vet.

Ideally i would like the Nitty to take a looky-loo at it as well, so we can bolt it down, but majority rule and all that...

[Nitty]

All my valuable posts have been deleted :cry:

I will be online now and again, so I will have a look at the final draft before it gets set in stone ;)

[Thumponius]

:offtopic: